Has anyone had a BAD experience with SLO Sail and Canvas? i am considering giving him a chance since he is about 1/2 the cost of my usual vendor. But he needs my tramp (as he hasn't done mystere's before) and i dont want to be without it and end up with a bad product.

he seems like a good guy to work with, but just curious if anyone has had a bad experience at all with him or his tramps.

Adrew, I've never heard anything bad about SLO, but you've got Tampa Catamarans, one of my long-time advertiser/supporters right in your neighborhood. I don't know if they have done Mystere tramps either, but you are so close you could bring him your old one if needed.
http://www.tampa-catamarans.com

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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My Slo tramp is a year and a half old, it is great so far.

SLO is a great company that make good quality tramps using good materials and workmanship. IMO the best bang for the buck. Sunrise makes a great product if you can afford them.

A friend of mine had a tramp by slo that fit a little funny. He called Slo and they had a new one out the door the next day. He seems to stick by his products and was very quick to reply to my friend. Ill be buying my tramp from him since i know he stands behind his work and is very quick to reply to a concerned customer. Sounds like a great outfit to me.

Andrew, Jim here. My new yellow tramp is from SloSail. I love it. Got the teflon stitching upgrade. First tramp was a little wide, contacted them, had a new one in 3 days with a return shipping label for the first one. They also placed grommets at 3" inch center as per my request for no extra charge. I payed less than $300.

andrewscott

Has anyone had a BAD experience with SLO Sail and Canvas? i am considering giving him a chance since he is about 1/2 the cost of my usual vendor. But he needs my tramp (as he hasn't done mystere's before) and i dont want to be without it and end up with a bad product.

he seems like a good guy to work with, but just curious if anyone has had a bad experience at all with him or his tramps.

Andrew here is mt e-mail address. What is your phone #? jgraves22tampabay.rr.com

Andrew. That is , jgraves2@tampabay.rr.com sorry

I bought a slo sail tramp for my H16 (sold) last season. Came it fit perfect. It looked great this year when I sold it too.

Great info, thanks guys.

I had heard only good things, just wanted to hear if there was any bad news too... so far none!

Jim... Phone number sent..
AND Congrats on your win at the Worlds. Did you see the video on catsailor someone posted? the conditions looked rough!

See ya at the beach

Andrew. Plan on sailing this weekend. Thanks for the congrats. The actual regatta was Hobie Midwinters East Coast Championships. Needed to correct the forum, you understand.

They gave me a second pocket for free.

i wont be out sat, pop's in town and he refuses to get his feet wet.. but i will sun and might tomorrow afternoon till sundown (if the front clears)

Sorry it took so long to respond. I find that the tramps from SLO are very well made, I would say they are at least 90% of the quality of Sunrise, but half the price. It is not the difficulty of making a tramp but the quality of materials and workmanship, and SLO rates very high in both areas.

andrewscott

i wont be out sat, pop's in town and he refuses to get his feet wet.. but i will sun and might tomorrow afternoon till sundown (if the front clears)

cool, thanks everyone.

i am going to give them a try

Andrew, I had SLO build me a main for my N5.7 a year and a half ago. im no expert, but the sail seemed very well constructed and performed well also. I sold the boat within 6 mos of purchassing the sail. New owner hasnt reported any problems.
A close friend purchased a new main for his N5.8. 6 mos of use, had it restiched by Chip Buck over at Whirlwind 2 weeks ago. There were problems with much of the stitching.
I also had Chip @ Whirlwind build me a main for my N6.0 and WOW! The shape and workmanship of this sail is incredible. I think he does tramps also.Chip Buck [sailmakerchip@gmail.com]great guy, very easy to work with, send him a line, tell him Brett from phoenix refered you... Not that it will help.
I was going to have Karl build the sail for my N6.0. But I contacted him the week before last thanksgiving about downpayment etc., and he fell off the face of the planet. Finally gave up on trying to contact him around the first of the year. Thats when I contacted Chip. Good moove BTW.

Quote

was going to have Karl build the sail for my N6.0. But I contacted him the week before last thanksgiving about downpayment etc., and he fell off the face of the planet.

He has fallen off the face of the earth with me as well... i am still giving him a chance. i know he is swamped

PS i have talked with Chip about sails before and he was great to work with, in the end i bought a used jib but recommend him all the time.

I figured I would let everyone know, I recieved my new tramp and wings from tampa catamarans. Everything looks great, looks the same as past purchased tramps from other companies. The price was definitly what made me give them a try, I saved about $350.00.

Quote

I was going to have Karl build the sail for my N6.0. But I contacted him the week before last thanksgiving about downpayment etc., and he fell off the face of the planet.

Ok i can wait no longer.. here it is

DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH KARL from SLO CANVAS AND SAIL

after several emails with him, and surveying the people on this site... we came to an agreement of around $200 for a new Mystere 5.5 tramp (his quote, i never haggled at all). he said it would be about 100 off the regular price since he hadn't made one before and i would need to send him my tramp as a pattern (along with images and measurements)

I sent him my old tramp (actually my friends) in April with measurements.. he has NEVER done the work, he has been next to impossible to contact (his voice mail is never answered, usually to full to even leave a message, and he wont return emails.

I have gotten through a few times to him and he has appoligized, said he was busy and it would be done "this week"... never to hear back. the few times i have gotten through on the phone to his co-workers (or whomever) and i told them i need my tramp returned.. .NOTHING

i have now placed complaint with both the BBB and the California States attorney/CA Dept of Justice. I HOPE THEY ARREST HIM and my next move is to file with the post office for federal mail fraud.

Then my next move is to hire a lawyer and sue the jerk to recover my friends property. I have lawyer friends, but i want to hire the most expensive one i can find, on contingency so he has to pay 10000's for their fees.

I was polite and only pressed him to either do the work, or return my property.




edited by: andrewscott, Aug 04, 2010 - 02:28 PM

Noted.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Ayyyeee .....
Andrew sorry to hear that. Sounds like really bad customer service. I had a really good experience with Slo sails, I wonder what happened?!?...Also recently had good experience with Tampa Bay catamarans.

Actually should probably plug Tampa Bay...got a new tramp for the H21...it is great they put quite a few more grommets on the center (less stress on each grommet)...so far so good...

Quote

I had a really good experience with Slo sails, I wonder what happened?!?

most people on this site said they did as well,.. thats why i gave him a try. i am just pissed i have to replace my friends tramp now along with a new one for me... thats about 1200 for 2 new tramps.... grrrrr

Wow bummer of a plug for SLO. We had heard nothing but good until this bad experience. It will stick in everyone's minds more than the good. Just goes to show how customer service is important for every job no matter how small. So many cat sailors view this here that it is sure a lot of potential customers lost for SLO.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

That is why i haven't posted anything until now. Besides the one person above (azcat) who said Karl "fell off the earth" everyone said he had good service. By the time he wrote that post, i already couldn't get Karl to return an email or call me...

Trust me, i would rather have good news, and a tramp. I even told him i sail with a fleet of mysteres and this could lead to lots of business if it all turned out well....

I have exhausted all other options next to a lawsuit. and i have looked into that (and it will happen if he doesn't return the tramp, regardless of cost to me).

it will cost me $200 to file a claim to get back a used tramp that isn't worth much. and then i have to pay to have him served.

the only reason i would do that is, (besides to get the tramp back) that he could (not will) be found liable for my court costs and legal fees.. so i am hunting for a very very very good (and expensive) lawyer to take this silly little case on contingency.

Let us know if you hear anything....

andrewscott

the only reason i would do that is, (besides to get the tramp back) that he could (not will) be found liable for my court costs and legal fees.. so i am hunting for a very very very good (and expensive) lawyer to take this silly little case on contingency.

That's beyond ridiculous.

Headhunter

andrewscott

the only reason i would do that is, (besides to get the tramp back) that he could (not will) be found liable for my court costs and legal fees.. so i am hunting for a very very very good (and expensive) lawyer to take this silly little case on contingency.

That's beyond ridiculous.

what's ridiculous? suing the guy to get my property back and hoping he has to pay my legal and court fees?

i think it would be great if he was found guilty, and ordered to return my tramp, and then had a few 1000 in legal fees... just rewards for his "customer service"

The really unfortunate thing is that Andrew has to resort to a lawsuit. Here in Canada we are much less litigious than in the US. However, if this case is accurate,(we only have the facts from one side), then I think Andrew should sue, for the reurn of his property & costs.
If there are problems with the company, personal or otherwise, it would be very simple for SLO to simply return an email, And tell the guy that he can't do the work, & return his original tramp. Even if he went bankrupt, then started up again, I would try him. With this situation, there is no way I would take a risk.
Good luck Andrew, I'll send you a 6 pack to ease the pain, both financially & mentally of having to go through this.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Thanks E.C.
I don't drink beer, but i will let you buy me a rummie if your ever in our neck of the woods. :)

Posting here and on the other cat site was an attempt to get some movement. someone on the other site said he called Karl and told him to look at the thread. Hopefully he will contact me and return the damn thing

It was stated that he has contracts with Murry's and North Sails and that is why he is so busy. They also said he is moving to a bigger facility...

Again, i would have much preferred to get a tramp, post great results and send him business.

Very shocking Karl replaced my Nacra 5.5sl tramp fast when the first one did not fit he did the same for another Nacra 5.5sl owner I know here in Houston. He even threw in new tramp lace and paid the return shipping for me to send the old one back to him. Sorry to hear this happend to you Andrew.

Was about to order a tramp for a Prindle 15 from SLO and just noticed this thread. I am in Aus so I would rather not have any issues that might require me to send it back or worse.

I will wait and see how this is resolved before I order one.

Ok, it is August 8, 2010. Wish I had read this thread before I ordered a sail from SLO. I agree with Andrew. My experience has been poor so far. I see others have other opinions, but personally I wouldn't deal with Karl Deardorff at SLO Sail and Canvas again.



edited by: pliny, Aug 09, 2010 - 05:00 PM

pliny

Ok, it is August 8, 2010. Wish I had read this thread before I ordered a sail from SLO. I agree with Andrew. My experience has been poor so far. I see others have other opinions, but personally I wouldn't deal with Karl Deardorff at SLO Sail and Canvas again.

when did you order it?
when did you expect it back?

I ordered a new tramp from them anyway and paying with paypal gives the buyer some security.

I will keep people informed as to when I receive it etc.

Hopefully these are just isolated incidents and I get a good quality tramp that fits like original and I receive it in a timely manner.

I paid extra for Teflon thread so hopefully this tramp will last a long time in the hot Aussie sun.

If you read this thread at some point SloSails, make me a good one please :)

andrewscott - any update on your tramp situation from SLO? I am considering replacing mine this off season.

--
David
Memphis, TN
'84 Hobie 18
--

Quote

andrewscott - any update on your tramp situation from SLO? I am considering replacing mine this off season.

2 people from the other site said they called Karl (and talked with him)

a friend wrote to SLO canvas, and they replied to him

they have yet to contact me in any way

i called his store, and got voice mail again

I will post if i get it back..

I e-mailed TampaCats about a tramp for a P18, here is the reply I got:-

Quote

Hi Turbo,

Thanks for writing. Unfortunately, we are only fabricating for Hobies at this time.

Best regards,

Rose

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

turbohobo

I e-mailed TampaCats about a tramp for a P18, here is the reply I got:-

Quote

Hi Turbo,

Thanks for writing. Unfortunately, we are only fabricating for Hobies at this time.

Best regards,

Rose

that sucks.


SUNRISE YACHT PRODUCTS - http://www.multihullnets.com/

on the other forum site just about everybody swears by sunrise. my tramp is from them and it was very well made.. only normal wear and tear. i had them make my custom front tramp.. they were great to work with, superb job... i will use them next time for sure.. it only hurts in the wallet for a while... but hey, a tramp is more important that food right?

I like Performance Catamaran but you got to admit Hobie Cat is the GM of the Catamaran world thats why I always tell newbies to get a Hobie for your first boat they are everywhere and so are parts & info and you can buy them cheap and sell them easy too. Turbohobo and others if you buy a SLO sails trampoline do it thru Ebay then you have recourse via paypal & feedback I just got ripped off on some carbo blocks on Ebay I escalated it thru paypal and got all my money back because the seller did not respond Good Luck! or try this place and give us feedback http://www.atomictarp.com/sailing/sailing.html



edited by: fa1321, Aug 13, 2010 - 12:20 PM

I ordered a new tramp a few days ago from Slo and am quite happy with the transaction so far. They have answered all my emails quite quickly.

They have included an extra halyard pocket for free and when I asked could I add lacing lines to my order they told me they will include them for this order which I certainly appreciate.

I am looking forward to seeing my new tramp which will be finished early this next week. Shipping to Australia was $68 which isn't bad for a heavy parcel half way around world.

When I get it I might post some pics.

Quote

Hi Turbo,

Thanks for writing. Unfortunately, we are only fabricating for Hobies at this time.

Best regards,

Rose

Did you sign your email to them as Turbo? Sorry, struck me as funny.


--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Ryder

UNTIL I get it I'll STFU.

Fixed that for ya..

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

yurdle

Ryder

UNTIL I get it I'll STFU.

Fixed that for ya..

Must be missing your point I think... Not quite sure how someone relating their experience thus far with a supplier of cat tramps seems to offend you but no worries.

Head over to Sailing anarchy mate, with remarks like that you would fit right in




edited by: Ryder, Aug 14, 2010 - 09:28 PM

still nothing

Maybe, if we all call them they will get the message. I guess we would all have to leave a message, since they don't answer the phone.

Quote

Must be missing your point I think... Not quite sure how someone relating their experience thus far with a supplier of cat tramps seems to offend you but no worries.

Head over to Sailing anarchy mate, with remarks like that you would fit right in

I'm not familiar with the SA forums but judging by the context I feel duly chastised.

My issue is that your seemingly unwarranted positive remarks could take away from Andrew's issue, or SLO's desire to solve it. Somewhat ironically, you and Andrew seem to be in the exact same boat, just at a different point in time. That will change if/when you receive something, so please post an update then.

I've got no skin in this game so I'll shut up about it from here.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Too much drama. Pete

Yeah, I'm just hoping this turns out to be some huge misunderstanding. Although that is seeming less and less likely. I hate when someone who had a good reputation blows it to hell, but there still could be some sort of extenuating circumstance (nervous breakdown, family problems, etc.). There is still a chance for damage control if SLO mans up to resolve the issue. I'm pretty sure Andrew just wants his tramps back and a decent replacement made.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Never listen to one and judge two!

thanks for all your guys input and support and words of wisdom.

it is long past a circumstantial misunderstanding. its been over 4 months. i have requested its return a few dozen times without response.

yesterday i sent a certified letter demanding return as advised by legal council as the last attempt to get it returned.

I had 3 people contact him. He told someone who he does work for (in the sailing business) that he would return it soon but that was 10 days ago.

andrewscott

that he would return it soon

Return it soon??? Uh, so even though its been months he will get around to it when he feels like it???

Your friend's tramp seems to be long gone...thats a shame. He needs to fess up if its gone and if there is any way he needs to make a replacement for your friend and heavily discount one for you.


Sorry you are going thru this. What is your buddy doing without a tramp? Does he have anything else to sail?

--
David
Memphis, TN
'84 Hobie 18
--

Quote

Sorry you are going thru this. What is your buddy doing without a tramp? Does he have anything else to sail?

It was not on his cat, it was his spare tramp. it was a bit worn but in very useable condition. It is the tramp we all passed around when our own tramp was shot and we were waiting for a replacement to be built.

After 4 months i finally told him about this. I told him i expected it back shortly.. but now it seems i need to tell him that was wrong..

PS - there is little chance of SLO building me one as they have never built a mystere tramp before, and this was why i had to send him one (and measurements) as a template. and that isn't happening again.

Perhaps he should pay the entire replacement cost from SUnrise ($600+).. that would be fitting wouldnt it?

Thanks for the support



edited by: andrewscott, Aug 18, 2010 - 01:03 PM

If he will not/can not make a replacement then it is only fair to have him pay for the replacement.

--
David
Memphis, TN
'84 Hobie 18
--

I can tell an equally bad story about a company that I once had a good opinion of, named Sunrise. Beware.

Gary

I think anyone who has been in business has been on the wrong side of a horror story like this. A wise boss once told me it isn't weather you are going to make a mistake, it is how you deal with it once you have made it. It sounds like SLO is dealing with this by ignoring it and hoping it will go away and by doing so has just made it much much worse than it needed to be.

I have found that in the long run it is much better to own up to an error really early on and fix it as best as possible. You might be a little embarrassed in the short term but one or two stories like this one can completely kill your business. One satisfied customer will tell 10 of thier friends about it. One pissed off customer will tell 1000 people they meet about it.

It's too bad some people have to learn that lesson the hard way or don't learn it at all!

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

hobiegary

I can tell an equally bad story about a company that I once had a good opinion of, named Sunrise. Beware.

Gary

Gary, good to see you here, don't be a stranger!


--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

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How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

javascript:void(0);



Edited by solsailer18 on Jan 18, 2011 - 05:59 PM.

This sucks... I just read your thread after placing an order for a new tramp from SLO. I e-mailed them to request a fabric sample card for comparison and received it in the mail three days later so it seemed like a good omen. Placed my order via pay pal and got notification that it was being shipped the next day. UPS dropped it off today (three days later without the express upgrade.) I'm very happy with the overall quality of the tramp and I'll be sure to let you know if it installs easily and fits well. My good fortune not withstanding I will definitely think twice about doing business with them again. I'm in retail myself and the biggest key to providing great customer service is being big enough to own up to your mistakes and find a way to make things right for the customer. They obviously don't have your tramp anymore and the best thing they could do at this point is let you in on their dirty little secret and find away to coax your forgiveness. Hope your situation gets resolved and sorry to hear that my experience wasn't shared by all.

--
Jeremy Hales
1974 SOLCAT 18
Salem, OR
--

I've ordered more than one trampoline from SUNRISE and been damn pleased every time. They specialize in trampoline fab, it's what they do. Sometimes there's a reason to pay the price

I agree Tami!

Glad you had a good experience Jeremy and i agree with all you said.

He could have remedied the situation 100times and 100ways, he did not make any attempt. He has lost a lot of business from my fleet, and has tarnished his reputation on this and other forums. I "made good" with the owner of the tramp by giving him a top furler swivel, but will always feel bad that i lost his backup tramp (and that will effect everyone in our fleet that used it in times of need).

none the less i am HAPPY you got good service and hope anyone who deals with him does as well.

tami

I've ordered more than one trampoline from SUNRISE and been damn pleased every time. They specialize in trampoline fab, it's what they do. Sometimes there's a reason to pay the price

Richard Leng @ Sunrise does an excellent job and for the extra few dollars you're paying it is well worth it. The attention to detail is tremendous and the communication is awesome. I have ordered well over 18 tramps through him these past couple of years for some of the locals and a few "kanuckes." With the exception of one there was never a problem in the customization of the tramp, or the quality and the time to get the product. The one problem we had was something that had manifested after the tramp was on the boat (pocket was too small) and the person wanted to have it changed, which was something I chose not to do, due to the owners unreasonable demands

I have also done a fair amount of business with Karl @ SLO on stock trampolines and never had a problem.



Edited by JohnES on Jan 21, 2011 - 09:19 AM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

What is a "kanuckes."?

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Should be Canuck which is a term for Canadians

Ah, good to know. Eh, E.C. :)

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Yeah, I thought I might have to apply for a different passport. Man you go to china for a few days & the whole bloody country changes on ya

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

So after all of this where is the best place to get a replacement tramp for a Hobie 21 SE. I need the tramp and also the wings. Is it possible to get drink holders cut into the wings....need them for an occasional adult beverage...
Jim
Higgins Lake Mi

Quote

after all of this where is the best place to get a replacement tram

Richard Leng @ Sunrise -

I can give a "thumbs up" to Slo Sail and Canvas. I ordered a new tramp and wing tramps with the teflon thread for my Hobie 18 Magnum and it all came out excellent. I've had several people ask me about them. They threw in a line catcher and tramp pocket for no extra charge.

What is a line catcher?

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

I've ordered several dozen tramps from SLO and have had excellent service, especially custom tramps. Pete

MN3

Quote

after all of this where is the best place to get a replacement tram

Richard Leng @ Sunrise -

did you get your tramp back?

--
Angelo
1983 Hobie 16 Cat fever #55697
2008 laser 4.7/radial #190471
SARASOTA, FLORIDA
S.S.S
S.Y.S.P
--

A Line Catcher is a 5"-6" wide strip of tramp material that gets placed between your left and right tramp pieces. It extends from the front crossbar all the way to the back, and fits into the tramp lacing. It prevents your sheet lines (and anything else) from falling between the two tramp side pieces. I didn't have one before, and now wouldn't do without one.

That line catcher also keeps water from shooting through the lacing. Really important when the water is cold.

--
Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
--

optikid

MN3

Quote

after all of this where is the best place to get a replacement tram

Richard Leng @ Sunrise -

did you get your tramp back?

Never got my (friend's) tramp back.
Never had an email, or voicemail returned

Jeramy from San Fran (SurfCityRacing) contacted Karl (without me asking him to) at SLO, Karl said he was to busy to get to it.. .would get to it or return it.... and never did

After reading through this thread Andrew it seems you're the only that has had a problem with SLO....... sad to hear that!

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

I ordered a trampoline from them for my Prindle 19 and upon receiving it, there was a slight stitching issue I had. Was not a big deal, just something that bugged me. I called Karl and he didn't hesitate! He advised he wanted me to be 100% satisfied and that he would ship another tramp that same day, and have it "overnighted." They also covered the return shipping. Exellent customer service! This is the way every company should operate! The tramp was very well made and looks great! Thanks Karl!!!

Installed the tramp yesterday and it looks great, quality appears to be very good and should last for years!


Prindle 19
TCDYC.com
Seabrook TX

I am not sure that the person who is upset with slosails knows how much positive advertising he has generated for the company with all these posts.

JohnES

After reading through this thread Andrew it seems you're the only that has had a problem with SLO....... sad to hear that!

I am glad no one else had the same results (my friends tramp that was sent as a template was never returned)

PS one other person on this forum had a similar experience

Quote

"I was going to have Karl build the sail for my N6.0. But I contacted him the week before last thanksgiving about downpayment etc., and he fell off the face of the planet. Finally gave up on trying to contact him around the first of the year. Thats when I contacted Chip. Good moove BTW."

Edited by MN3 on Jul 02, 2012 - 08:19 AM.

HULLFLYER

I am not sure that the person who is upset with slosails knows how much positive advertising he has generated for the company with all these posts.

If having terrible reviews all over the first page of google, yahoo, and yelp... are "positive advertising" and good for business .. he must be loving it.

If having a F rating on your local BBB site is good for business... he should treat every customer without professionalism and not return their property too..



Edited by MN3 on Jul 02, 2012 - 11:29 AM.