I seem to be having a problem when under heavier winds with my rudders coming up when under way. I have read post on this or similar topics before but did not really understand all that was said so maybe I need it to be dumbed down a a bit or something.

I don't seem to have problems at lower speeds. It primarily seems to affect the leeward rudder the most. Under higher speeds it seems like it is almost impossible to keep the rudder locked down. This of course makes steering very difficult. One quick trip out and in about 15 min just about did my arm in trying to hold a course.

I admit that I have done nothing to the rudder setup myself other than restringing the rudder lines. It could just be that I need to replace the the springs. The hooked connecting pins do not seem to be overly worn. There is some rust but nothing major.

I will defiantly consider just rebuilding all the internal rudder parts but even then I will need help on how to adjust afterwards for desired effect. I don't get on the water as much as many of you so it's hard to just adjust and test and adjust and test. I need to try to get it as right as possible the first time.

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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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The bolt which the lock bolt hooks into might be bent, so the hook no longer engages properly. Remove and straighten bolt, or replace it.

Worn lock bolt. Replace, or some filing might help. Don't overdo it; changing the angle only by 1 degree will have an effect.

Fatigue of the springs, as you suspected. Replace, or compress them in a vise.

One of the lock jam nuts might be loose, and the continuous tearing might have made the hole bigger; the lock bolt wobbles and no longer engages properly. Fiberglass the hole and redrill.

On my P18-2, it is all of the above...

HTH,
Dan



edited by: catdan, Sep 09, 2009 - 03:26 AM

You never mentioned adjusting the rudder locking mech. This is normally the problem and it can be adjusted on shore and and tested on shore as well.

I pretty sure it's only helm adjustment, but no adjustment for release pressure. Nothing mentioned in the P18 19 manual either.

Dan

Put a milk crate under the hull on land so that rudder can swing down without touching ground. Tools needed are screw driver, 7/16 & 9/16 wrenches. Jam screw driver into hole in rudder to lock inner 9/16 nut. Loosen outer 9/16 nut & turn hook INTO rudder one 360 turn. Tighten outer 9/16 nut & pull out screwdriver. Slam rudder into casting & it should clunk in fairly firm. Usually takes two hands on bottom of rudder to pull it out firmly. Turn hook opposite way if rudder is locking too tightly. Rudder springs are only $5, so replace if necessary. Pete

I seem to be having the opposite problem...in that my rudders were "popping out" too easily. So, I made the adjustment and brought the cupped/hand/bolt on the rudder inwards...or closer to the rudder itself. Now, I have it in too much (I guess) because I it takes too much arm strength to get to pop back out. I am going to loosen the nuts and move the bolt/cupped hand thing away from the rudder to try to ease the tight grip the pin on the spring loaded mechanism.
Don't ya all love it when a Newbie uses incorrect terms for all of the "thingys" and "gadgets" that are on the floating-sailing thing I take out onto the lake??



edited by: TileMan5309, Sep 09, 2009 - 08:50 AM

Thanks Pete and everyone else. I will try that and am probably going to at least get springs and probably rebuild the guts over winter.

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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

Wow, OK not be come across as a know it all but it sounds to me like there is some confusion here. The adjustable locking bolt that I believe everyone is referring to here has nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to lock/release the rudders on a Prindle Cat. The adjustments you are referring to, change how the tiller responds to movement by the skipper. By adjusting the angle of the rudders and the rake of the mast, you change how much force you need in order to change the direction of the boat (i.e. weather helm). If your rudders are kicking up to easily or they are to hard to latch, then you are dealing with a hardware issue. Most likely a bent bolt. If you want to feel what I am talking about with the adjustment, rake the mast up so that it is almost perpendicular to the cross bar and adjust the rudder lock bolts so that they are as close to the boat as possible and go sailing. You will feel like the boat is pulling really hard into the wind, and may even feel like it is out of control.

Weather helm is all I had out there and but it was from the rudder not staying down. Kicked up isn't really right either as Prindle rudders don't really kick up as in all the way unless you pull them up and lock them in but you guys know that I guess. They stay in a lower speeds just fine and steering is great in fact. I had some higher winds the night before without to much trouble but we had 2 ft waves and were just trying to get back to camp and were not pushing for speed but the next day in about the same winds I took a short jaunt out with a more experienced Nacra skipper and the leeward mostly rudder would not stay down for more than a minute. I am not sure what all the aqua dynamics are and where the strain and such would be, but something put enough pressure on it in those conditions to keep it from staying locked in and bear to steer.

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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

If the rudder suddenly kicks up, it's almost impossible to hold it. That is with some too strong weather helm as I had with my cat. (The mast rake adjusted in the meantime). In fact, we almost hit a freight vessel when that happened.

Adam is right; there is no adjustment on Prindles for lock/release pressure. My best guess it's a bent bolt. The straight one into which the lock bolt locks into.

Dan

Sorry, Adam & Dan are misinformed. If you will simply put milk crate under hull and make adjustments, you will see rudder locking very easily or very firmly. Pete

I have to agree with Pete...the difference between my rudders popping out of the down position with only a finger pull and me having to really yank on them with my arm strength was changed by me just moving that bolt in the rudders in and out. Although you may think you are adjusting the rake in the rudders....I am pretty sure that the adjustment of this bolt is mostly for "release pressure."

Thank you all again. Now I have to put the rudders back on in the driveway and test it out. If I get it on the trailer just right I can put them down all the way.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

I'm more than happy to learn this does the lock/release adjustment. However, the manual on page 12 does not mention it. Instead it says moving the lock bolt in and out is for "helm adjustment".

Dan

i had the same problem. the latches get bent and or worn as well as the 1/4" s steel bolts. i replaced all nuts, washers, and bolts on the rudders(grade 3 stainless steele only!) as well as new latches. new latches from prindle are 30 bucks a piece and when i did it they were on back order. i soon discover that i found the same length and thread on a carriage bolt that i ground with my 4" grinder to the same shape. within 15 minutes a piece i made the new ones. now make sure to leave some "meat" on the new latches so you can adjust the amount of tension it takes to release them. this is done with a flat file(which is also how you adjust the factory ones). this can easily be done in your driveway with a total cost of hardware of under 20 bucks and a couple of hours. if you buy the latches from prindle you still may have to file them to desired action but do so only after you have adjusted the rake of the rudders(see prindle owners manual for proper setting). hope this helps, bill

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Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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I agree that the manual does talk about this bolt adjustment being meant for helm adjust...but, as you adjust the rudders out, away from the hulls, you are indeed changing the angle of the bolt as it contacts the spring loaded pin. So, even though this adjustment is meant for helm, it also directly affects the amount of "grip" that this bolt head has at the same time.

Consider the dead horse thoroughly beaten!

dustin, when you put the new hardware in, adjust the helm according to the manual first. if the new rudder lock bolt won't release easy enough then take a flat file and take off a little at a time until you like it. don't take off too much or you will need a new lock bolt again. the boat is much easier and faster to sail with a balanced helm. you may even wait to file anything until you get her in the water. i just did the same thing to my p16 over the past 2 weeks with much success. good luck, bill

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Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
--

Just to update I adjusted as Pete suggested without changing any parts yet, and it made a whole world of difference. I actually did the starboard side a little to tight the first try while I was still on the trailer and I was worried for a minute I wasn't going to get the rudder back up again but I finally got and turned it back a bit.

Had a great day sailing at Pineview Res by Huntsville, UT. Couple of my kids got to go out on a friends F18 and they had a blast trapping. My youngest tried trapping on mine until I dunked him. Wind was pretty good probably not quite as much as last time but not a single rudder kickup problem at all.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

I had a lot of problems with rudders kicking out too. My headaches are gone due to a modification I did to my catamaran. I put the rudder down to the desired position and drilled a 1/4" hole through the gungeon (spelling?) bracket and the rudder. I then took a 1/4" stainless locking pin and push it though. Later I bought some galvanized cable inserted it into the pre drilled hole in the pin and made a loop of about 3-4" in diameter, then ran the remainder of the cable up to the rudder arm and went around it and crimped it there too. So now I sail the cat out to water that poses no risk of hitting anything, and push the rudder down and insert the pin. When comining into the shallows I just reach over, put my fingers through the loop and pop out the pin. (the pin hangs from the rudder arm)It works amazingly well. I did it on my hobie too, but it doesn't work as well on the hobie. When leaning over on the hobie the hole is deeper under water than the prindle due to the hull design. I did this modification not just because of rudder pop up, but for multiple reasons. Rudders were hard to pull down with the rope. Hard to pop out with rope, the lock up position wasn't high enough to keep them out of the water ect, ect.

When I moor the cat, I lift the rudder all the way up and insert the pin, the rudder rests on the pin high and dry.

I got so frustrated with hobie and prindles rudder design. It is a product of over design. Nacra and solcat never seem to have these problems.

Now knowing this, the cat is at risk of hitting something and doing damage to it if your not careful or forget. This winter I am going to test aluminum tubing and even plastic rods to insert into the holes to find the desired break away.

Hey man you stole my idea.Yes it does work great dont have to worry about rudders flopping down when not in use.Plus the fact that i have no more stinking cams or springs to worry about,and i love when your flying like a bat out of hell and both rudders are down before i always had one that would pop up but not no more.KUDOS

Spray_in_the_face

I had a lot of problems with rudders kicking out too. My headaches are gone due to a modification I did to my catamaran. I put the rudder down to the desired position and drilled a 1/4" hole through the gungeon (spelling?) bracket and the rudder. I then took a 1/4" stainless locking pin and push it though. Later I bought some galvanized cable inserted it into the pre drilled hole in the pin and made a loop of about 3-4" in diameter, then ran the remainder of the cable up to the rudder arm and went around it and crimped it there too. So now I sail the cat out to water that poses no risk of hitting anything, and push the rudder down and insert the pin. When comining into the shallows I just reach over, put my fingers through the loop and pop out the pin. (the pin hangs from the rudder arm)It works amazingly well. I did it on my hobie too, but it doesn't work as well on the hobie. When leaning over on the hobie the hole is deeper under water than the prindle due to the hull design. I did this modification not just because of rudder pop up, but for multiple reasons. Rudders were hard to pull down with the rope. Hard to pop out with rope, the lock up position wasn't high enough to keep them out of the water ect, ect.

When I moor the cat, I lift the rudder all the way up and insert the pin, the rudder rests on the pin high and dry.

I got so frustrated with hobie and prindles rudder design. It is a product of over design. Nacra and solcat never seem to have these problems.

Now knowing this, the cat is at risk of hitting something and doing damage to it if your not careful or forget. This winter I am going to test aluminum tubing and even plastic rods to insert into the holes to find the desired break away.

Hey Jim, my former Mac 25 used a locking pin to hold the rudder down too. For pins, some people used wooden dowels, Idasailor.com sold a plastic pin, but I found plastic toilet seat bolts worked perfectly.
Keep us posted on your idea.

Kgatesman, hey thanks for the tip! Brjonair and myself have been working on this problem for a while now. I like the plastic bolt idea a lot. If you are cruising along and get too shallow, a guy really wants something that will sheer off. Just carry some extras. I've steered away from wood because it swells when wet, and could make it difficult to remove. However, now that I just thought about it, all one has to do is cut the dowels to length and polyurethane them. I do like the clean sheering of wood. Do the plastic bolts sheer or do they stretch and bind?

Congrats Brad on the new cat.

The plastic bolts shear/snap. The Mac 25 rudder was a much bigger lever though than a P18 rudder, twice as long probably. On the other hand, the P18 rudder is a much sturdier plank, factory Mac rudders are hollow.

Here are the rudder shear pins from Idasailor. I think they are thinner than a toilet seat bolt.

http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=442

If the product designers/engineers had only spent a little more time thinking, there would be no problems whatsoever with the rudder designs.

An example of superior design and engineering is in aircraft or car technology. They cannot afford having any of those systems to fail. A car with doors that don't always lock properly and fling open? Accelerator sticking? Wipers not working? Aircraft rudder a bit hard and unresponsive?


Dan

I will say it again, you can fix this problem in 30 minutes or less if you read what has been posted previously. It truly is a simple fix and if done properly it will stay that way for years. Replacing the cams on Hobies takes about the same amount of time. It will work if you will JUST DO IT. Don't get hung up about rudder rake etc. Loosen the nut, dial the locking mech in, if it is not staying down and retighten, it is that simple.

Guys,
Some great ideas here, but in reality are attempts to fix an existing problem (i.e. bent bolt, worn cam, weak springs, casting slop, worn lines, worn cleats, failing bungees, etc.). I'm referencing a broad set of issues along all manufacturers. The rudder systems, WHEN PROPERLY TUNED AND MAINTAINED, will work as designed. IMO, shear pins are bad idea to apply to a beachcat. Not saying it won't work under certain conditions boat brand and model specific, just an invitation for more problems and to complicate the process of raising and lowering your rudders.

If your rudders are popping up while sailing, something is wrong and should be fixed. I agree that none of the manufacturers systems are perfect, but they all succeed at working as designed. These designs, some 30 years old and proven, sailed by the best sailors in the world, have worked. No need to reinvent the wheel. . .

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Philip
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i'm with mummp, the first time you go through this may seem difficult but once you get it, you got it. when i fixed mine, most of the bolts were bent, the latch was bent, the ropes were worn out, etc.. after installing all the new parts, BALANCING THE HELM(see owners manual), and adjusting the release tension with a flat file(only if needed), the rudders work great. the next time they give you problems you can diagnose it and fix it easily and help others fix theres too. you can do it! bill.

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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HULLFLYER

I will say it again, you can fix this problem in 30 minutes or less if you read what has been posted previously. It truly is a simple fix and if done properly it will stay that way for years. Replacing the cams on Hobies takes about the same amount of time. It will work if you will JUST DO IT. Don't get hung up about rudder rake etc. Loosen the nut, dial the locking mech in, if it is not staying down and retighten, it is that simple.

Just to stay on topic that is exactly what I did and seems to have worked exactly as prescribed.

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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

Quote

Guys,
Some great ideas here, but in reality are attempts to fix an existing problem (i.e. bent bolt, worn cam, weak springs, casting slop, worn lines, worn cleats, failing bungees, etc.). I'm referencing a broad set of issues along all manufacturers. The rudder systems, WHEN PROPERLY TUNED AND MAINTAINED, will work as designed. IMO, shear pins are bad idea to apply to a beachcat. Not saying it won't work under certain conditions boat brand and model specific, just an invitation for more problems and to complicate the process of raising and lowering your rudders.

If your rudders are popping up while sailing, something is wrong and should be fixed. I agree that none of the manufacturers systems are perfect, but they all succeed at working as designed. These designs, some 30 years old and proven, sailed by the best sailors in the world, have worked. No need to reinvent the wheel. . .

I disagree, First of all, some of these catamarans need more than a simple spring or cam pin ect. This is exactly what I'm getting at. How much money are going to stick into this thing before you get it up to snuff?? Sure if I had a cat that was ten or fifteen years old, I'd get the parts that the manufacturer provides and put them in. Are you going to buy rudder arms and gungeons that have been rubbing metal to metal for years. I am not sure if you have piced the parts lately?

Secondly the whole purpose of my discussion on previous posts is not to reinvent the wheel, but to explain that just maybe a rubber wheel may work better than one made of stone. I can show you a video of a brand new Hobie having trouble locking down the rudders. Watch closely after they put it in the water, they cut the scene just as the guy was ready to bang the rudder arm down again. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN THIS BEFORE? Someone slamming the rudder arm down to get that cam to flip and lock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w76Dv9uk5-g

Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to bash Hobie, Prindle or whomever. I am disappointed that they were not redesigned after this many years. Like I said earlier, why doesn't nacra or solcat have these problems? Maybe it costs too much to make the change and provide parts for the old ones and the new design, I don't know.

I'm just simply giving fellow sailors who are plagued with the same problems I have been faced with, A quick fix to a problem.

Spray_in_the_face

I disagree, First of all, some of these catamarans need more than a simple spring or cam pin ect. This is exactly what I'm getting at. How much money are going to stick into this thing before you get it up to snuff??

Jim, your Prindle rudder system fix reminds me of another member who came up with an ingenious fix for the problem of the old-style Hobie 18 rudder system failing to pop-up.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…pictures&g2_itemId=11352
He actually took some critisim because people said "why don't you just ugprade to the new (plastic cam) system?

But the point was that his fix got HIS boat back on the water for a price HE could afford, and it might help some other sailor get sailing. I think that is your intention also, I would appreciate it if you could take pictures of your pin system for the technical help section. I think some people might even do this with a working factory system as a solution to keeping the rudders raised high when on the beach or trailer.

I do think that whenever these type of solutions are presented it should always be stressed that the "best practice" would be to correctly implement the factory solution.

I've owned Hobie 18's since 1992 and it wasn't untill two years ago that I finally had a working rudder kickup adjustment. I had never been able to turn the plastic screw to adjust the spring, since I had never had a brand new boat I didn't really know how easy it was supposed to be. When I finally took the trouble to completely remove the old screw (had to burn it out and run a tap through the threads) and install a new greased adjustment screw I was amazed at how easy it made the adjustment.

A lot of the problems we have with the rudder systems of all brands are simply that we aren't dealing with brand new boats, after many years of working perfectly they wear out, get miss-adjusted, or even just dirty and need some attention.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Damon,

I'll try to get pictures tomorrow.

Quote

I think some people might even do this with a working factory system as a solution to keeping the rudders raised high when on the beach or trailer.

I like the PIN idea for this reason. I wouldn't want to have to try to remember to put or pull a pin while sailing but I would love to have a pin the locked them up for trailering, even if just from setup area to ramp. I quite often setup in a parking lot a little ways away from the ramp and since the water is low the ramp is dry and you actually just drive down the packed sand and launch but it can be bumpy and always worry the rope will bounce out

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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

This picture shows the loop for easy grab on the fly.







Keep in mind the pins should be wood or plastic. I used the stainless,but it doesn't offer any protection from a bottom out.