Does anyone know if there is adjustment for rudder release on the pridle 16. It has dual springs (one on each side of the rudder)that are the tensioners to the rudder release pin/screw. The problem I see here is when the rudders are raised, the springs are under constant load, stretching the springs and decreasing the the ability to hold the rudders locked in at speed. Any suggestions?

Jim

The springs are not the adjustment. The stainless steel cam is the part that needs to be adjusted, by moving it in or out as needed. First loosen the nut on the outside of the cam, then put a screw driver or something in the hole where the half moon washer and nut are and turn the cam to loosen the nut. Then you can move the cam in or out to adjust. Retighten and make sure the cam is lined up properly and put the rudder in the lock down position. It is easiest to do if the boat is on a trailer or cat trax, as it may take 2 or 3 times to get it where you like. It should require some pressure to pull the rudder up by hand so it stays down while sailing but not too much as you want it to kick up when hitting the beach.

Hullflyer do you pull up your rudders by hand before you hit the beach, or Do you let them kick up by themselves?

I normally let them kick up when I hit the beach. You can lift them up before but it takes some practice and its not real easy to do. You have to face aft and pull hard on the pull up line and then pull again and hold and moving through the water helps the rudder to the up position. When I raced P-16's we would raise the windward rudder in real light conditions, not sure if it really helped, but it looked like we knew what we were doing. In the previous post when I said it would require some pressure to unlock the rudder I meant grabbing the rudder by hand on the bottom and jerking it until it released, not by using the pull up line.

Hullflyer, that stainless steel cam adjustment is for weather helm. (just looked at the PDF owner manual) I need the rudders to stay down. I see no mention of rudder kick up tension. The only way I see to adjust, is to purchase new springs. They are very specific springs and any-old-spring will not do. They have to be a specific length, diam, strength and the loop ends of the springs have to be off to the side of the spring, not the center. I have made a low tech approach to fixing the problem. I will test it as soon as I can get out and sail again.

Jim

i think this is what he is talking about!

Yup, Screwin g in or out adjusts the rake. I put two small hose clamps around 3/4 of the two springs to force them to tighten. This definitely helps but doesn't seem to be enough to keep the rudder in at high speed. Two possible solutions: 1) the pin that part hooks to, turns when the rudder gets pulled out. Not allowing it to turn may make much harder for it to come out. 2)as a last resort possibly file out a little material at the base of the catch area of the pin. This would allow it to seat better.

I promise you what I said will take care of the rudder problem (just try it) unless the part is completely worn out. I bought my first P-16 in 1977 and have owned several new P-16 P-18 P-18/2 P-19 and they all have the same rudder system. I have adjusted my own rudders and have helped several others in the past 30 years. The rudder has only 1 pivot point, so if you think about what happens if you screw the cam in or out, you will understand. Also do no overtighten the nut and bolt that hold the springs in place, as they have to be able to move to work properly.
The photo Kinlawk posted is the exact part that I am talking about adjusting, that is why is has threads. To futher help the rudders you need to take all of the slop out of the system. Start by putting spacers between the rudders and the castings then raise the rudder to the up position and tighten the pivot bolt so the rudder stays up, and then back off the nut just until the rudder drops, then make sure that there is no slop where the tiller connector bar joins with the rudder casting arms, and finally make sure that the tiller (hiking stick) connection has no slop. Put the rudders down and measure up 22 inches from the bottom and make a mark on both the leading and trailing edges. Measure the distance between the leading edges and then the trailing edges, adjust until they are the same. Hobies like 1/4 inch toe in but I find that Prindles run best if they have no toe in.
Seriously, I have owned and sailed Prindles over 30 years and have helped many sailors with the exact problem.

Hullflyer is right on the mark.
I've never had to play with or replace my springs...my P16 is 1976.
I find adjusting the lock bolt always fixes the kick up.
If you're still having trouble may be you need to replace the lock bolt.

OK, to revisit this issue. I had problems with my rudders releasing while underway and not holding when locked in. Most of the hardware was pretty worn so I desided to replace all of it. I got all the new hardware installed yesterday and now there is less tension than before
I noticed that the new cam bolts, (see kinlawk's pic) were longer than the old ones by about 1/4". With that in play, with the new bolts fully inserted they extended about 1" from the rudder. My question is, which direction does what, ie does extending the bolt increase or decrease the rudder release tension? If I need to screw the bolt in further, I will have to shorten them a bit and that is possible but I don't want to do so unless I need to.

--
Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
--

Shortening the lock-down bolt by screwing it in will increase the lock-down force on the locking pin located inside the rudder casting, if the locking bolt is 1/4 longer as you describe, it may impede/prevent you from acquiring the lock-down force needed. In that case, you will have to cut the bolt shorter, but screw the lock-nut on 1st, cut the bolt, then screw nut off. I am refurbishing a P16 right now and when I get to the rudders will take pics of rudder adjustment, but they are exactly the same as the P18 I had and I got those dialed in replacing only the sheaves for the rudder lines as they were deteriorated.

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

You are right that adjusting the bolt does adjust th rake for weather helm, however raking the rudders further forward also makes rudders harder to kickup.

Hard to kickup also can mean harder to lock in. Mine take a retry good pull to lock in. It usually works best if they are up so the force of pulling them down can really knock em in. My boys usually do not do this hard enough so hte rudder comes up like it kicked up only the problem is it was never locked in o begin with.


If you worried pring go ahead nd replace them they are reativley cheap at Murray's. About $4 last time I checked.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

I had this problem too. I can also verify that what's said above is correct, make sure the springs are loose enough to actually move up and down (loosening the tension on the lock-bolt) Basically if the rake is adjusted so that the rudder bottom is pointed back/aft then pulling it up using the lines will be easier, because it is already at an angle towards swinging up. If the rudder bottom(end) is raked so far foward (The bolt is very tight/short/screwed in) then the rudder is on the other side of a straight up & down axis, so when its lines are pulled, it probably has to be pursuaded to swing back/aft and up (meaning it's very hard to unlock, and you'll probably have to lean over the rudder, reach into the water and knock it up to get started).

I ordered a new lock-bolt ($35) and springs but they shipped too slow before a sailing trip. Nothing showed by the time I had to leave, so I ended up using "Water Weld" from Home Depot ($8..amazing stuff), basically gobbed some on the worn out end/hook of the bolt (Because it was worn out, the rudder would gradually unlock and move itself up while sailing in chop or through seaweed) So I used a toothpick and flat head screw driver to shape the water weld material at the end of the bolt, 30 minutes later it was rock hard and has worked ever since. Of course when I got home a week later the new bolt arrived and now it's just an expensive extra piece in my parts box. The springs were "on back order" so I cancelled the order, I think no matter how old they are, the stiffer the better, as long as the nuts/screws through the casting still allow the springs to move up and down.

For me, unlocking the rudders takes pulling both of the lines really hard at the same time for a few repititions. I probably look like I'm trying to start a lawnmower. But this will shake the springs and bolt enough to get it unlocked, then usually I need to reach down and lift the rudder up while pulling the up-line. Luckily (only for this scenario) I usually sail into docks, not beaches, so speed isn't required to get this done right, as the P16 is tied to the dock with the sail dropped by the time I swing the rudders out of the water. For beaching, I usually would pull the lines a few times and try to unlock them, but otherwise wait for them to kick-up on their own if I had to pay attention to where I was going and couldn't waste more time on the rudders.

If I can't get the unlock/locking perfect, and I had to choose between having them strongly locked down while sailing or having them loose enough to swing up easily, I would choose for them to be strongly locked down, really hard to swing up. It was really annoying when the lock-bolt was worn out so even though the rudder was easy to bring up whenever I wanted, I had to stop while sailing along every 5 - 10 minutes, turn downwind and push the rudder back down because friction would swing it up, you notice this immediately because it gets hard to steer.

I think the manual says to start by adjusting the helm so the rudders are parallel to the transom, using a yard-stick to get it right. I think the best thing would be to get the helm to that point of parallel, and then play with the tightness of the spring bolts and other internal pieces before drastically moving the lock-bolt in or out, and see if you can lock and unlock it comfortably with other adjustments.

If your bolt is worn out, I swear by that waterweld stuff as a cheap fix. It's a 5" tube that looks a little like sidewalk chalk, and you can cut a little piece, mold it and after a few minutes it's as hard as cement, and it can be filed to form if you added too much. I guess plumbers use it because it even hardens when the surface is wet. I filled some cracks near the gudgeons with it too, no more leaks, not even a drop.

--
Redondo Beach, CA
'80 Prindle 16.
(Got it for free!)
--

After checking, I found out that only one of my rudders did not want to let the new cam bolts seat fully and a minor tune up with a drill solved that issue. Once I was able to get the bolts screwed in further the lock tension responded much better. I will do the alignment for weather helm this weekend but having better locking force is encouraging. Thanks to all for the information!

--
Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
--

Just to summarize/pile on: The cam screw adjusts both rudder rake and release force. The rake part is obvious. The release force changes becuase the angle of the cam screw ramp that holds on the spring loaded bar changes as you screw it in and out. If you screw the cam out (make it stick out more from the rudder), it catches the bar earlier as it rotates down so the ramp has more angle for the spring loaded bar to slide off of it. It you tighten the screw in, the ramp is steeper and harder for the spring loaded bar to slide off of it.

This makes it so you have to balance between rudder rake/weather or lee helm and kick up force.

--
John Fricker
Prindle 16
Seabrook, Texas
--

I've been fiddling with my rudder release mechanism, and frankly, it seems dumb that the adjustment does both release force and steering helm. I have a slight lee helm that I don't like, but the release force is already pretty weak, and will get weaker if extend the cam screw out of the rudder further to get rid of the lee helm. I didn't use a force gauge but I estimate it takes less than 5 lbs pull at the bottom of the rudder to release it, which is less than I like. The cam screw looks fine (not bent), so maybe I'll try grinding the angle on the cam steeper.

What's the release force of your Prindle rudder? What should it be so it doesn't kickup at hig speeds?

--
John Fricker
Prindle 16
Seabrook, Texas
--

The Prindle is not known for mast rake like the Hobie, rule of thumb is "the more you rake the mast back, the more you rake the rudders forward", most Prindles do well with the mast straight up so don't worry about raking the rudders, just set your break-away force using the locking bolt. Once you have that set, check your rudders for alignment, are they toe in/out? The Prindle manual has a section on setting the alignment

http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=75867

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

I have been struggling a bit with mine on my p18 of late as well. I have them all the way in and this good when testing on dry land but not so much when sailing. If I back them one turn out then they are to loose and come up to easily when sailing.

As they are now the problem seems to be no that they kick up but that they are never getting fully locked in so they begin to come up at speed. Though mostly they only seem to come out a little but it is enough to make the helm too much to hold a course.

I sail quite often off a very shallow shore line so I have to get out a ways before I can really lock them in. I have to have them down some though so I can maneuver. This makes them mostly down but not locked when I get deep enough and leaves very little leverage to them locked. If I can on the windward side I pull it up and try to quickly slam it back down to lock and this sometimes works. This can be hard to do on the leeward side depending on conditions and my crew is usually one of boys and they don't have the strength to pull up by rope alone.

I have new springs and bolts (not the hooked bolt) but all the other parts are original. I think I will have to pull the entire hook bolt out and take a good look. They don't look bent at all to me but who knows.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

In an effort to help resolve issues with the Prindle rudder locking mechanism, I have created an album in the Technical Help section, I hope these close up pics can help all those Prindle sailors out there with steering problems. The difference between a GREAT day of sailing and a miserable day can be your rudders, get them dialed in and sail it like you stole it.......

http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=89541

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

Wow! very good pictures and directions. It took me a while this weekend, but I got the release tension up to a reasonable level. Should have cured my weather helm issues also. I agree that it is a pain that the two adjustments are related. Can't see any way around it other than to shim the rudder mounts once you have the release tension you need. Not sure I would want to go there so I hope I am happy with the way it sails now.

--
Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
--

Agreed thanks for this. It will help many future Prindle sailors. I will double check the tightness of my locking bolt to make sure it is also moving freely. Not sure if it has anything to do with it but can't hurt.

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

The "locking bolt", situated in the rudder, must be tight, the "locking pin", situated on the rudder casting, must have enough play to move up and down, some make the mistake of overtightening the locknut, preventing the "locking pin" from moving. Clear as mud huh....

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

turbohobo

In an effort to help resolve issues with the Prindle rudder locking mechanism, I have created an album in the Technical Help section, I hope these close up pics can help all those Prindle sailors out there with steering problems. The difference between a GREAT day of sailing and a miserable day can be your rudders, get them dialed in and sail it like you stole it.......

http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=89541

TurboHobo,

Just got a chance to check out your Prindle Rudder Mechanism album, very nice! Reads like a novel and even though I've never had a Prindle I now feel qualified to put the rudder system together.

http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=89541

Thanks,

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

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--

once you get through the learning curve for the prindle rudders, they work great and adjusting/tuning is easy. i went through mine the first season i had the boat and they still work perfect, i just inspect them regularly...i replaced the lines again this spring and did it ten times faster than the first time. solid glass is nice...

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
--

coastrat

once you get through the learning curve for the prindle rudders, they work great and adjusting/tuning is easy. i went through mine the first season i had the boat and they still work perfect, i just inspect them regularly...i replaced the lines again this spring and did it ten times faster than the first time. solid glass is nice...

Coastrat and I went through mine, and they work perfectly. 0 issues.

--
Prindle 18 aka Yellowtail. On the beautiful Mississippi gulf coast. Gautier / Independent Republic of Vancleave / Ocean Springs. Lot's to learn about these boats.
--

Just a note... While adjusting the Prindle 16 rudder, make VERY sure to keep your fingers out of harm's way if the rudder should happen to fall while you are installing pieces... Just found out the hard way that this is a good idea...


--
Mike
1975 Prindle restoration project "Sanchah"
Retired Teacher
Newbie Sailor
--

Prindle 16 rudder issues lockdown issues... On page 4 of the Photo Albums there is a set of pictures (posted by etrader) showing an "alternative lockdown" for Prindle rudders (metal pins in holes drilled through the casting and rudder) Seems like this would lead to disaster if rudder hits anything solid at speed. But... what if instead of a metal pin, one used a wooden dowel or some other type of breakaway material (that would break, theoretically, if the rudder hit anything solid). Might this eliminate the rudder flopping issue? Seems like you could carry a few of the dowels in a pocket somewhere in case one broke... Any thoughts?

--
Mike
1975 Prindle restoration project "Sanchah"
Retired Teacher
Newbie Sailor
--

Hmmm! too many unknowns here, what is the "shear strength" of the wooden dowel as opposed to the "shear strength" of the aged transom? If you look closely at those pics I noticed that he has clamps around the springs on his rudders, why??? also this alternative negates any adjustment to rudder rake. I do think that this method would be an option for trailering the Prindle rudders up using wood/nylon/plastic dowels but not a good idea for sailing rudders down.

Mike, are u having some difficulty with your rudder lockdown? if so, feel free to contact me anytime and I will be happy to walk you through any issues you may be having. I find that most of the Prindle rudder problems can be resolved with just a little "tweaking", in some cases parts of the mechanism have to be replaced but cost is minimal.

http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=89541

Renovator

PM sent....

Once you get the rudders set you will be fine...I love the reassuring clunk-thud sound it makes when they lock in, no clunk thud, no lock. Sure they are a bid more complicated to set up the first time, but that's it once they are done they are set.

I took my rudders completely apart and replaced most of the bolts, all sheaves and spacers as well as the line. I found that the locking pin bolts were bent ever so slightly, and everything else was worn out. Also check your castings, I had one that bent way out that I needed to replace. I did this on the bench for the sake of my fingers

Once they were re mounted I adjusted them as stated in the instructions from the factory along with mast rake and it was balanced the first time out of the gate. I'd suggest using a yard stick on the transom to set the rudder rake.

I'd deal with the issues and get them to work like the factory suggested, on a 40 year old boat there will be plenty of other things to keep you busy.

--
Bob Miller
1983 P16 Sail # 7312
"Miller Time" A work in progress; out of the water for 16 years
Barnegat Bay NJ
Beach Cat Lesson #1 - A free cat isn't
Find more Prindles on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/173120656090532/
--

The only real issue we are having with the lockdown is kelp... Every time we sail over some kelp the rudder comes up... Of course then it sheds the kelp and we can haul it back down... I guess that's better than dragging the kelp around. Of course I suppose we could avoid the kelp, but there is one heck of a lot of it around Monterey... Just sort of looking around for some method that would haul down the rudder quickly and easily after it comes up....???

Here's another idea I haven't tried yet... What if I used some small diameter bungee cord on the down line?
Seems like that would add a bit of tension to the system and help hold the rudder down... I could tie a knot in
the line at the top where it exits the tiller so that the tension would be "correct". Theoretically the rudder
would still kick up when needed, but it would almost haul itself back down... Of course this is predicated on the
idea that I could find the correct diameter bungee cord... Hmmm? Downsides? Whatcha think?

--
Mike
1975 Prindle restoration project "Sanchah"
Retired Teacher
Newbie Sailor
--

You can adjust the locking bolt so that it takes more pressure to kick up when sailing in kelp, but remember when coming into the beach it will also take more pressure to release. If sailing on a lake you can stop before the shore and pull on the bottom of the rudders to release if you have done this. Also when the rudder does kick up or release when you hit something in the water it is best, if possible to make sure you use the pull up line and raise the rudder as high as possible and then use the pull down line and pull hard while releasing the pull up line and this way the rudder will have some force when it hits the water and will be easier to relock in position. Trying to relock the rudder when it is still in the water can be a little difficult.

If all components in the rudder system are in good shape, the Prindle rudders are a proven system. The anchor pin and locking pin are straight, the locking bolt is straight and the lip on the lock-bolt is not worn, the springs are not stretched out, the half-round load spreaders are not cracked and decaying, the rudder lines are reaved correctly, the upper and lower rudder sheaves are in good condition and the rudder line is in good condition and is 5/32" low stretch line, all sheaves, upper and lower, have SS spacers, the lock release straps are setup correctly with the sheave and nylon spacer; the system will work. Why try improve on an already proven system?



anchor pin is straight...



locking pin is straight and springs are not stretched out....



the lock release mechanism is setup correctly with sheave and nylon spacer, when you pull on the "up" line, the tension lifts the lock-pin and frees the lock-bolt....



the upper sheaves are in good condition and spin freely, notice the SS washers between sheaves?



the rudder lines are reaved correctly, one on either side of the tiller connector bolt, 1/4" aluminum tubing makes good "T" handles, balls work ok.....



rudder lines are reaved in straight lines to their corresponding sheaves to eliminate binding....



locking bolt is straight, lip is not worn from incorrect alignment on locking pin and half-round load spreaders are in good shape...

Now go sail and stay away from kelp, try sailing further out into the ocean......

(PS, many thanks to turbohobo for his outstanding album.. )



Edited by the-renovator on Apr 10, 2014 - 08:24 AM.

the-renovator

If all components in the rudder system are in good shape, the Prindle rudders are a proven system. The anchor pin and locking pin are straight, the locking bolt is straight and the lip on the lock-bolt is not worn, the springs are not stretched out, the half-round load spreaders are not cracked and decaying, .....

Excellent post and pictures renovator!

It's similar to the "problem" with the pre-1987 rudder casting system on the Hobie 18 with the metal cam.

The system worked perfectly fine while it was in good shape, the problem was after parts started wearing out. (20 years later) Unfortunately that system can't really be fixed once it goes bad. At least the Prindle system can be rebuilt.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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X2 On renovator's post

Plus, I'd bet you a beer that the lock pin bolt is bent or set too loose

Re: your shock cord idea: I don't see how you could rig up a line that is taught enough to provide downward pressure while the rudders are down yet enough stretch to allow them to kick up? Besides Prindle rudder blades and castings are worth their weight in gold.... don't go drilling holes in them.

Assuming your lock bolts are in good shape ( sometimes they get bent too) you could and should go thru your rudders and replace the line and sheaves/roller/spacers for $20 Before you try to rig up something on you own I'd spend the time to make sure your current system is working properly. The lock bolts are $35 each but I think cost rat has a post on a DIY w/ a SS carriage bolt and a grinder

http://www.murrays.com/mm…merchant.mvc?Screen=SRCH

Not that I'm the expert on sailing my P16 but my home bay is very shallow and I've found that when a rudder kicks up especially the lee rudder that its very difficult to pull the rudder down against the forward momentum of the water. I sheet out or if I have enough rudder, head up and lock it in.

--
Bob Miller
1983 P16 Sail # 7312
"Miller Time" A work in progress; out of the water for 16 years
Barnegat Bay NJ
Beach Cat Lesson #1 - A free cat isn't
Find more Prindles on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/173120656090532/
--

Hi guys... Back again... I was just wondering if anybody had tried the "bungee (shock) cord on the pulldown line" idea before... I've been through the rudders and they are adjusted correctly... I can pull them down and lock them and they stay as long as I don't hit kelp... Actually, it's sort of a benefit when they kick up in the kelp. The kelp then slides off the rudder instead of getting dragged along... I was just trying to figure out an easier way of pulling them back down when I'm out of the kelp again. I had pretty much given up on the idea in "etraders" photo album (about drilling the holes and adding pins). I agree that the Prindle rudder system is pretty good. It's just that pesky "pulling the rudders back down after they kick up" issue that has me thinking... Soooo, if nobody has tried it before, I may just go ahead and give it a test and see what happens... I can always go back to the standard line that I have if it doesn't work... Who knows? It may revolutionize Prindle rudder technology... Or not!... I'm having delusions of being the Thomas Edison of Prindle catamarans... ... I'll let you know how it works out if and when I finally get around to trying it...

--
Mike
1975 Prindle restoration project "Sanchah"
Retired Teacher
Newbie Sailor
--

BTW... I too am eternally grateful to Turbohobo for the excellent photos regarding the rudder lines and rudder adjustments...

--
Mike
1975 Prindle restoration project "Sanchah"
Retired Teacher
Newbie Sailor
--